Monday, February 4, 2002
Thomas Thrasher's
Early Remarks & Questions
First, I wish to thank Al for the gentlemanly tone of his "Introductory
Remarks." I will make every effort to see that this approach continues
throughout our discussion. My fervent desire is that our readers will be
able to see that religious debates can be conducted with courtesy and
kindness, even as the participants strive to contend earnestly for the
faith which was once delivered to the saints (Jude 3). As someone once
said, "We can disagree without being disagreeable."
Furthermore, I agree with Al that "we both have much to learn as we seek
to comprehend the mind and will of the Infinite One." No claim is being
made that I already know 100% of what there is to know on this subject (or
any subject for that matter). During the course of this discussion, if Al
can demonstrate conclusively that I have taken an erroneous position on any
point or passage, I will not hesitate to admit my mistake. We do not need
to cling to false arguments in order to uphold the truth. On the other
hand, just because a person may make a weak or faulty argument, or
misunderstand the teaching of a particular passage of scripture, does not
mean that his position is necessarily wrong. Therefore, as I have done in
the past on several matters, I am quite willing to change my view of a
Bible passage if I am convinced that I had misunderstood it, and I will
also relinquish any argument if I am convinced it was an unsound one (cf.
Apollos, Acts 18:24-28).
Al apologized "for including the word 'eternal' in the subject," since
it was not actually in our agreement. However, I do not object to the
insertion of this word, since (as he remarked) it clarifies "the
distinction between temporal judgments upon the wicked in this life, and
the ultimate destiny of the unredeemed (an eternal judgment)..." The
punishment that comes upon the wicked during this life is not our issue.
Both of us recognize that such punishment/suffering occurs (cf. Proverbs
11:21; 19:5; 24:16; 1 Peter 4:15).
Al states, "... the ultimate destiny of the unredeemed (an eternal
judgment) ... will certainly transcend anything experienced in this life."
Al, please tell us exactly what "the ultimate destiny of the unredeemed"
is! Clarifying this now will help to focus upon the issue.
"For many years," Al says, "I embraced the same position on the destiny
of the wicked that is currently held by Thomas." He proceeds to describe
his "conversion" to the position he now holds after reading The Fire That
Consumes by Edward Fudge. I would observe that although a person can be
"converted" to truth (Acts 3:19; James 5:19-20), he can also be "converted"
to error (Galatians 1:6; 3:1; 5:4; 2 Timothy 2:17-18; 2 Peter 2:20-22).
Tragically, many Christians (and even some gospel preachers) have left the
faith. A few years ago, I debated Farrell Till (an atheist and the editor
of The Skeptical Review) who had been for many years a preacher of the
gospel. Therefore, the fact that Al changed from "the same position ...
currently held by Thomas" to "basically" the position held by Edward
Fudge proves nothing about what the truth is on this topic!
With reference to his former view of the eternal destiny of the wicked,
Al explains, "I blindly accepted it and set about proclaiming it." I have
no reason to deny Al's account of his early preaching. However, my approach
to preaching was (and still is) radically different. I did not "proclaim"
things I had "blindly accepted." Rather, I preached what I had studied in
the Scriptures (2 Timothy 2:2; 3:16 - 4:2; 1 Corinthians 2:13). My
procedure in preparing lessons was (and still is) to "search the
Scriptures" to find out what is so (Acts 17:11).
Concerning the view he now holds, Al states: "... after a couple of years
of perhaps the most intense and extensive study of a topic I have ever
done, I had to admit that Edward [Fudge] was basically right in his
conclusions." After Ed's The Fire That Consumes was published in 1982, my
wife purchased a copy for me as a gift. After reading the book and studying
Ed's arguments, I found his argumentation to be unconvincing for a number
of reasons. However, since Al says Ed's views were "basically right,"
perhaps he will explain to us how Ed's views were wrong (and, consequently,
how Al's view is different from Ed's)!
Al asserts that "the word we translate 'eternal' in the pages of the NT
writings can have both a qualitative and quantitative meaning and
application." This assertion will be one of the points of discussion. We
already agree that eternal "denotes time without end, endlessness, forever
and ever." However, Al says, "... if he needs me to elaborate further on this
qualitative-quantitative distinction, then we can certainly take some time
in the next posts to do just that." Taking him up on this offer, I ask him
to prove the "qualitative" use of "eternal" in passages addressing the
"eternal destiny of the wicked"-- the issue in this discussion. The reader
will find the word translated "eternal" or "everlasting" used in the
following passages:
In my "Introductory Article," I suggested five points regarding "the
destiny of the wicked," and called upon Al to comment. He was kind enough
to do so, acknowledging that "each of his [Thomas'] five points pertain to
the destiny of the wicked." He then comments on each point individually.
#1 -- "The destiny of the wicked is to die physically, unless living at
Christ's return. This is also true of the righteous." Al agrees completely.
He recognizes the exception of those "living at Christ's return" to the
principle stated in Hebrews 9:27. In addition to these, he mentions the
cases of Enoch and Elijah. For completeness on this point, I also mention
the exception of those (such as Lazarus of Bethany) who were raised from
the dead in the Bible. These did not die "once"; they died "twice"
physically. I think Al will agree on this as well. Consequently, I see no
need for further discussion of point #1.
#2 -- "The destiny of the wicked is to enter Hades, unless living at
Christ's return. This is also true of the righteous. However, the righteous
and wicked are in separate parts of Hades." Al's comments clearly indicate
the need for future discussion about "Hades." Among the passages I will
introduce for study are Matthew 16:18; Luke 16:23; Acts 2:27, 31;
Revelation 1:18; 6:8; 20:13-14.
#3 -- "The destiny of the wicked is to be raised from the dead, unless
living at Christ's return. This is also true of the righteous." Al agrees
with the statement; however, he disagrees with the idea of "souls placed
back in bodies." Therefore, we will need to consider the nature of the
resurrection.
#4 -- "The destiny of the wicked is to be judged. This is also true of
the righteous." Al says, "I agree with this." Then he asks, "Would not
Thomas regard this as a second judgment ...?" In view of the context of his
question, my answer is "no" (to be explained when we discuss Hades).
#5 -- "The destiny of the wicked is to go into everlasting punishment.
This is not true of the righteous." Al agrees completely; however, he
points out that we "have vastly different perspectives of what constitutes
this 'punishment' upon the wicked." Since Al "basically" agrees with Ed
Fudge, I conclude that he does have a "different perspective" that we will
need to explore as the discussion progresses. Some of the verses for future
consideration are the following:
Al lists four things he seeks to accomplish during our exchange. I have
summarized them as follows:
I agree that these four items need to be incorporated into this debate.
Therefore, at this early stage of the process, we appear to have mutually
agreed upon the ground to be covered.
In his closing paragraph, Al comments, "I am pleased that more and more
disciples of Jesus Christ are beginning to seriously challenge what has
been handed down to them." Of course, he is referring to the topic of this
debate. However, "more and more disciples" are also "beginning to seriously
challenge" other God-given "traditions" (2 Thessalonians 2:15; 1
Corinthians 11:2), including, but not limited to:
The fact that some brethren are accepting error in such matters fulfills
the Spirit's declaration that "some will depart from the faith" (1 Timothy
4:1).
"Truth has nothing to fear from honest investigation." I totally agree!
Truth, and only truth, will make us free (John 8:32).
Al concludes, "May the only 'winner' in this exercise be TRUTH!!!" To
which I respond, "Amen!" And, as a result, may all who learn, accept, and
proclaim that truth share in that magnificent victory!