Thursday, March 28, 2002
Thomas Thrasher's Comments On
Al's Last Post & The Nature of Man
After reading Al’s fourth article, I think I will
borrow his sentiment “that there are so many statements made by HIM in dire need
of clarification and correction that I hardly know where to begin.” However, as
usual, I choose to begin by reviewing a few of his remarks in that article. THE CONCEPT OF "DEATH" I
wish to point out first that there is much in his discussion of “spiritual
death” and “figurative language” with which I agree, and that I believed for
years before I ever heard of Al Maxey. Al
declares his agreement with my conclusion “that ‘death’ is a separation.” He
says, “I think the word ‘separation’ aptly depicts the severing of one thing
from another.” He recognizes “three major types of ‘death’ which directly
affect man --- physical, spiritual and eternal,” and he acknowledges that “the
concept of ‘separation’ is detected in each of them.” He also says, “… in each of the three major
views: physical, spiritual and eternal … a ‘separation’ has occurred, and in
each that separation results in a loss of life in some sense.” Again, he says,
“Yes, in each of the three (physical, spiritual and eternal) a separation takes
place.” I am glad that Al has made his agreement on this abundantly clear. However,
Al thinks I fail “to perceive that it is the resultant state of such a
separation in each of these three views of death that truly defines ‘death,’
rather than the mere fact of separation itself.” He then asks, “… what is the
nature of that separation (what exactly is being separated) and what is the
resultant state? How does such separation impact the person or persons
involved?” Although
I addressed this in my third article, I will seek to clarify these matters by
summarizing these points on the following chart. Type of Death What/who are Separated? Resultant State/Impact Physical (James 2:26) Body & Spirit Body returns to dust/corruption (Gen. 3:19; Eccl. 12:7) --- Spirit resides in Hades/comfort or torment (Lk. 16:22-26;
Acts 2:31) Spiritual (Isaiah 59:1-2; Ephesians 2:1) Sinners & God Sin/no fellowship with God (1
Tim. 5:6; --- Holiness/desires sinners’ repentance (1 Pet. 1:15-16; 2 Pet. 3:9) Eternal (Matthew 25:41-46) Sinners & God Hell/eternal fire and eternal separation
from God (Lk. 12:5; Mt.
10:28; Rev. 20:15) --- Heaven/eternal fellowship with His servants (Heb. 9:24; Rev. 21:3-4; 22:1-5) Al states: “I believe Thomas has further failed to perceive the
distinction between literal and figurative language in one's analysis of the
biblical concept of death.” No, I
recognize that “figurative language” is sometimes used. However, my point was
this: when a PERSON dies (physically,
spiritually, or eternally), he does not become non-existing!
I will discuss this concept more a little later. Al
comments on 1 Timothy 5:6 (and similarly on Matthew 8:22 and Ephesians 2:1-2),
saying, “Thus, there is NO conflict whatsoever in declaring one ‘dead even
while she lives,’ for two completely different applications of ‘death’ are in
view --- one physical, one spiritual.” He is correct, UNLESS one takes the
position that “death” means that the non-existence
or extinction of the WHOLE PERSON
occurs! ·
Al
wrote: “PHYSICAL death is indeed a separation of the entire person
from life (the animation of the physical body). Man is a unified whole … when
man dies, man is dead ... ALL of him.” So, Al teaches that when a person dies physically the ENTIRE PERSON
is dead. ·
However,
he also wrote, “Thomas is partially correct in saying … that death ‘is not
cessation of existence or extinction.’ In the physical sense, that is
correct”! So, when one dies physically,
the ENTIRE PERSON does NOT become extinct! ·
Therefore,
when the entire person dies, the
entire person does not become extinct!
Consequently, physical death is NOT extinction of the entire person! ·
Yet,
when I asked Al, “Is he [Al] denying that he believes ‘death’ is extinction,
annihilation, or cessation of existence?” he answered, “No, I am not denying
that at all. I am affirming it.” So he is affirming that death IS
“extinction, annihilation, or cessation of existence”! That is what I meant when I said his
position was “puzzling.” So, when a man dies PHYSICALLY, does he cease to exist or not??? Does he become extinct? Is he annihilated?
Does any part of man survive when he
dies? Al
explains, “… However, with regard to ‘spiritual death’ something HAS ceased to exist.
What no longer exists … is a saving relationship with that God. She has been
severed from the very Source of Life Himself. She is DEAD with regard to
relationship with deity; that relationship NO LONGER EXISTS!!!” Note: Al
contends that in spiritual death the PERSON still exists, but SOMETHING (the relationship with God) does not. He
also says, “It was this that the father similarly spoke of in the Parable of
the Prodigal Son (Luke 15). Because of the son's willful severing of himself
from the home of the father, he was, during that time, considered ‘dead,’ but
came back to ‘life’ when the relationship was restored (vs. 24, 32). Thus, this
‘spiritual death’ is indeed an extinction of something precious beyond
compare…” Notice again that Al contends that in spiritual death the PERSON
still exists, but SOMETHING (the relationship
with the Father) does not. I
am going to agree with this statement and submit the following chart
making use of this concept. Type
of Death What
Does Exist What
Does Not Exist Physical The
Person (Matthew 22:32; Luke 16:23-31) A physical, bodily indwelling (James 2:26; Luke 16:22-23) Spiritual The
Person (1 Timothy 5:6; Ephesians 2:1-3) Fellowship with God (1 John 1:6; 1 Timothy
5:6) Eternal The
Person (Matthew 25:46; Mark 9:43-48) Fellowship with God
(Matthew 25:41; For each type of death something does not exist (the listing is
not exhaustive). However, in each case of death, the PERSON continues to exist!
I will demonstrate this further in the section on “THE NATURE OF MAN.” THOUGHTS ON ACTS When Peter quoted David’s prophecy (“You will not leave my soul in Hades,
nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption”),
he recognizes the “dual nature” of Jesus: ·
His
physical body: “His flesh” would not
see “corruption”--His body would not
return to the dust, because He would be raised from the dead (verse 31). ·
His
soul: “His soul” was not left in
Hades--it would re-enter His body when it was raised (cf. James ·
Jesus
had told the repentant criminal, “Today you will be with Me in Al’s
response is little more than an effort to explain away the clear teaching of
the apostle Peter with reference to Hades (Acts Al
refers to Luke 16:22-23 and Luke He
adds, “If man is WHOLLY MORTAL, with NO PART of him surviving physical death,
as I believe the Scriptures teach, then the question of an ‘ THE GREEK WORD “AIONIOS” In
responding to my question (What Bible verse PROVES the “qualitative” aspect of aionios?), Al cites Jude 7 -- I
think Al’s conclusion that there is a “qualitative” use of eternal in this verse misses the point entirely (I could quote several “scholars” on this
passage who disagree with Al’s conclusion). The point of the verse is that Figure/Type Passage Actual/Antitype Water of the Flood 1 Peter 3:20-21 Baptism Most Holy Place Heb. 9:6-12, 23-26 Heaven Passover Lamb 1 Cor. 5:7 Jesus Christ Angels 2 Peter 2:4 “False teachers” (vv. 1-3) “The unjust” (vv. 9-10) “These” (vv. 12-19) Ancient World 2 Peter 2:5 2 Peter 2:6 Jude 5 “Ungodly men” (v. 4) “These dreamers” (v. 8) “Ungodly” (v. 15) Angels Jude 6 Jude 7 “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands
of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among
them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way,
and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him”
(Jude 14-15). “The Lord knows how … to reserve the unjust
under punishment for the day of judgment” (2 Peter 2:9). A LOOK AT "HADES" A
significant part of Al’s “evidence” in this debate consists of quotations from
an array of supposed “scholars.” His remarks about Hades consist mostly of quotations
from a variety of sources, including Dillard Thurman, Willliam
Tyndale, Justyn Martyr,
John Milton, and (several times) Samuele Bacchiocchi. He continues to quote Edward Fudge rather
freely as well. I wonder if my opponent realizes that I can produce a multitude
of quotations from “scholars” who agree with the views I hold, and who disagree
with his? If he denies this simple fact, I may take time to prove it in my next
article! However, my quoting from such men would not prove my position true any
more than his quoting men proves his true! I suggest that he give more time and
attention to discussing Bible passages and less to what some “scholar”
thinks. Obviously, if we are discussing the meanings
of words, we may need to cite dictionaries/lexicons for definitions. Al quotes a
portion of Ecclesiastes 9:2-10, as if it supports his position that Sheol is an unconscious state. However, what he fails to
report to our readers is that these statements relate to what happens “under
the sun” (on earth). Look at the context: ·
“All
this I have seen, and applied my heart to every work that is done UNDER THE SUN
…” (8:9) ·
“There
is a vanity which occurs ON EARTH …” ( ·
“… a man has nothing better UNDER THE SUN … the days of his
life which God gives him UNDER THE SUN” ( ·
“… the business that is done ON EARTH …” ( ·
“… the work that is done UNDER THE SUN …” ( ·
“… in all that is done UNDER THE SUN … after that they go to
the dead” (9:3). ·
“… Nevermore
will they have a share in anything done UNDER THE SUN” (9:6). ·
“… life which He has given you UNDER THE SUN … labor which you
perform UNDER THE SUN” (9:9). ·
“… I
returned and saw UNDER THE SUN …” ( ·
“This
wisdom I have also seen UNDER THE SUN …” ( THE NATURE OF MAN Al
states: “… the many and varied issues we will be discussing in the course of
this debate all hinge upon our understanding of the nature of man. I
respectfully urge Thomas … to present his understanding from God's Word of the
nature of man.” I
am happy to do so, not by quoting the opinions of so-called “scholars” (such as
permeate so much of Al’s material), but by quoting God’s word. I believe that
man is basically a two-fold being: BODY and SPIRIT/SOUL (e.g., James Matthew 22:31-32, “… have you not read what was spoken to you
by God, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of
Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” ·
Abraham
had been physically dead for many
centuries (Genesis 25:8) ·
Isaac
had been physically dead for many centuries (Genesis 35:29). ·
Jacob
had been physically dead for many centuries (Genesis 49:33). ·
However,
they were still LIVING in the time of Moses (Exodus 3:6), because God said, “I
am” [present tense] the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. ·
They
were still living in the time of Jesus, because He said “God is” [present
tense] the God of the LIVING (Matthew ·
They
were still living in the time of Jesus, because He said “God is not the God of
the dead” (Matthew Matthew 17:1-3, “… Jesus … was transfigured before them….
And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.” ·
Moses
had died many centuries earlier (Deuteronomy 34:5). ·
How
could Moses appear at the transfiguration of Jesus if all there was to Moses
had ceased to exist? He obviously still existed despite his BODY’S return to
the dust! ·
He was
still MOSES—he had retained his identity even after his death! James 2:26, “For as the BODY without the SPIRIT is
dead, so faith without works is dead also.” ·
James
did NOT say “the spirit without the body is dead”! It is the BODY that is dead
when the SPIRIT departs. Man is more
than a physical body—he is also spirit,
and that survives physical death. Ecclesiastes 12:7, “Then the DUST will return to the earth as
it was, and the SPIRIT will return to God who gave it.” ·
Man’s
BODY will return to dust, but his SPIRIT will return to God. Daniel 7:15, “I, Daniel, was grieved in my SPIRIT within
my BODY, and the visions of my head troubled me.” ·
Note that
Daniel’s spirit was WITHIN his body, but distinguished from it. Acts 7:59, “And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, ‘Lord
Jesus, receive my SPIRIT.’” ·
Stephen
died and his body was buried (Acts 7:60; 8:2), but his SPIRIT was in the care
of God. 1 Corinthians 2:11, “For what man knows the things of a man
except the SPIRIT of the man which is in him? …” ·
A man’s
SPIRIT is IN him (if he is alive). 2 Peter 1:13-14, “Yes, I think it is right, as long as I am
IN THIS TENT, to stir you up by reminding you, knowing that shortly I must PUT
OFF THIS TENT, just as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me.” ·
Peter
certainly had an existence in addition to the physical body (“this tent”), for
he speaks of being IN his body now, but PUTTING OFF his body later on. ·
“Put
off” is translated from apothesis,
meaning “a putting off or away, laying aside” (The Analytical
Greek Lexicon, page 48). Revelation ·
The word
“blessed” is translated from makarios, meaning
“blessed, fortunate, happy, usu. in the sense privileged recipient of divine favor” (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early
Christian Literature by Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich & Danker, page 486);
“happy, blessed” (The Analytical Greek
Lexicon, page 256). ·
If the
dead cease to exist/become extinct/return to dust, how can the dead be “happy”? ·
However,
if (as the Bible teaches) they go into John 19:30, “So when Jesus had received the sour wine,
He said, ‘It is finished!’ And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.” ·
When
Jesus “gave up His SPIRIT” (and died), his BODY remained upon the cross for
some time before it was removed and placed in Joseph’s tomb. ·
However,
Jesus’ SPIRIT still existed after He died, and so did the spirit of the “thief
on the cross,” because Jesus said to him, “Today you will be with Me in Matthew 10:28, “And do not fear those who kill the BODY
but cannot kill the SOUL. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both SOUL
and BODY in hell.” ·
Someone
in this world might kill the BODY, but he cannot kill the SOUL! God can destroy
(ruin) BOTH in hell. There is more to man than his physical body. Hebrews 12:9, “Furthermore, we have had human fathers
[“fathers of our FLESH”—ASV, KJV] who corrected us, and we paid them respect.
Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of SPIRITS and
live?” ·
We
receive the physical BODY from our parents, but the SPIRIT comes from God. 2 Corinthians 12:2-3, “I know a MAN in Christ … whether IN THE
BODY I do not know, or whether OUT OF THE BODY I do not know, God knows … and I
know such a MAN—whether IN THE BODY or OUT OF THE BODY I do not know, God
knows.” ·
The
inspired apostle knew that a MAN could exist without being in his physical
BODY. So there is more to MAN than his physical body! 1 Thessalonians 5:23, “Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify
you completely; and may your whole SPIRIT, SOUL, and BODY be preserved
blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” ·
Whatever
distinctions one may make in the spirit and the soul in this verse, it is
obvious that they are not the body. Therefore, there is more to a PERSON than
his BODY! 2 Corinthians 4:16, “… Even though our OUTWARD MAN is
perishing, yet the INWARD man is being renewed day by day.” ·
The
PHYSICAL BODY (outward man) will eventually die and decay, but the SPIRIT
(inward man) will live on. ·
The
physical body is one of the “things which are seen” and it is “temporary”
(until putting on immortality, 1 Corinthians ·
Ephesians
3:16, “That He would grant you … to be strengthened with might through His
Spirit in the INNER MAN.” 2 Corinthians 5:6-8, “Therefore we are always confident, knowing
that while we are at home IN THE BODY we are absent from the Lord…. We are
confident, yes, well pleased rather to be ABSENT FROM THE BODY and to be
PRESENT WITH THE LORD.” ·
How
could a person be “absent from the body” and be anywhere, according to the
teaching of my opponent? ·
Isn’t it
clear, according to Paul, that each person has an existence apart from his
physical body? We can be “present with the Lord” though “absent from the body”! Philippians 1:21-24, “For to me, to live is Christ, and TO DIE
IS GAIN. But if I live on IN THE FLESH, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet
what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard pressed
between the two, having a desire to DEPART AND BE WITH CHRIST, which is FAR
BETTER. Nevertheless to REMAIN IN THE FLESH is more needful for you.” ·
Paul
said, “To die is gain.” If physical death brings non-existence, then how could
that be GAIN for Paul? ·
Paul
said, “To depart” (die physically) is “far better.” However, if death results
in CESSATION OF EXISTENCE, how could this be “far better”? ·
If death
means total extinction/ceasing to exist for the WHOLE PERSON, then death
involves “nothingness.” If Paul continued to live, he had the joy of being a
Christian (Philippians 4:4) and preaching the gospel that saves souls (Romans ·
The
truth is that, when Paul died physically, he would BE (exist) in a BETTER state
(one of comfort in the presence of righteous people, Luke The
primary point I want people to understand from these passages is that THERE IS
MORE TO MAN THAN HIS PHYSICAL BODY! When
the body is dead, the PERSON still exists as a SPIRIT BEING. Al asks me four (unnumbered) questions. I
have numbered them for convenience in replying. #1. Did Jesus actually provide a true ‘substitutionary’
death for mankind at the cross? #2. In other words, in the lyrics of a well-known hymn we frequently sing,
did Jesus truly ‘pay it all’? #3. Was the ultimate ‘wage’ of sin ‘paid in full’ by Jesus on behalf of the
redeemed who accept that gift of His sacrifice, or will wicked men, who do not
accept that gift of life in Him, pay a greater price after the judgment? #4. If the wages of sin for the unredeemed is everlasting separation from
God, with accompanying perpetual torture, did Jesus pay that price?” MY ANSWERS #1. I was unable to find “substitutionary” in the
Bible, so I checked Webster’s New
World Dictionary (Third College Edition). There was no definition for “substitutionary”; however, “substitute” was defined as “a person
or thing serving or used in place of another” (page 1336). Therefore, I would
say, “Yes.” In dying upon the cross, Jesus did what we could not do--He was “a
person … serving … in place of another”: ·
Isaiah
53:4-11, “Surely He has borne our griefs and carried our
sorrows … He was wounded for our
transgressions, He was bruised for our
iniquities; the chastisement for our
peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we
are healed … And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all … By His knowledge My righteous Servant
shall justify many, for He shall bear their
iniquities.” ·
Hebrews #2 &
#3a: Yes, when Jesus died upon the cross, He “paid it all” (the FULL PRICE) so
that sinners may receive forgiveness of their sins and avoid the
penalty for sin--eternal separation
from God in hell. The word of God
confirms this fact: ·
Romans
3:23-25, “For all have sinned and
fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the
redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth to be a
propitiation by His blood …” ·
Matthew
26:28, “For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is
shed for many for the remission of sins.” ·
Matthew 20:28,
“Just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” ·
Ephesians
1:7, “In Him we have redemption
through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, …” ·
Hebrews ·
Revelation
1:5, “… To Him who loved us and washed us
from our sins in His own blood” #3b
(Will wicked men, who do not accept
that gift of life in Him, pay a greater price after the judgment?): If by
“greater price” you means “greater than what Jesus’ paid,” then “No”! (1) The PRICE Jesus paid was the offering of
a HOLY, JUST, and SINLESS man for all SINNERS: ·
1 Peter ·
Romans
5:8, “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” ·
1 Peter
2:21-24, “… Christ also suffered for us … who committed no sin …who Himself bore our
sins in His own body on the tree …” ·
Acts (2) The PRICE sinners pay is a penalty for
THEIR PERSONAL SINS: ·
2
Corinthians 5:10, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ,
that each one may receive the things done
in the body, according to what he
has done, whether good or bad.” ·
Revelation
20:12, “… And the dead were judged according
to their works …” (3) The PRICE Jesus paid was sufficient to
obtain salvation for ALL MEN for ETERNITY: ·
1 John 2:2, “And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for
ours only but also for the whole world.” ·
John 1:29, “… Behold! The Lamb of God who takes
away the sin of the world!” ·
Hebrews 5:9, “… He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him” #4:
If you are asking whether Jesus was
tortured in eternal separation from God, then “No” (cf. Luke FOUR QUESTIONS FOR 1.
When “God created man in His own image” (Genesis 2.
If the wages of sin for the unredeemed
is “utter extinction forever,” did Jesus pay that price? 3. Do you believe that Jesus’ death upon the cross was the
cessation of life for the ENTIRE PERSON, not just a part of him”? 4. Which of the following individuals exist now? __
Adam __
Abraham __
Moses __
Elijah __
Lazarus (Luke 16) __
Paul EVEN ATHEISTS KNOW
WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES In
some of my preparations for a concurrent debate with an atheist, I was reading
another debate involving a well-known atheist. He commented that “the New
Testament does as a matter of fact plainly, emphatically and repeatedly
threaten eternal punishment in hell. I would add that the punishment threatened
is (or at least includes) being burned, literally being burned in literal fire
or something awfully like it…. Now, I don’t mean oxidized, consumed or cremated
as indeed happens, rather mercifully, when we are burned … Now, I say this is
preached in the New Testament” (Dr. Warren I. Matson, The Warren-Matson Debate on the
Existence of God, pp. 38-39). I do not cite Matson’s remark as proof of
the truth of my position, but only to indicate how obvious it is, even to an
atheist, what the New Testament says about the eternal destiny of the wicked.
Matson does not BELIEVE what the New Testament says on this subject, and
(sadly) neither does my friend and brother Al Maxey! Thomas N. Thrasher