Wednesday, July 24, 2002
Comments by Al Maxey on
Thrasher's Last Response,
Destiny of the Wicked, Undying Worms,
Forever Ascending Smoke of Torment
THOUGHTS ON THRASHER'S 8TH
About all I can say after having reviewed brother Thrasher's eighth submission to this discussion is -- he and I differ
on just about everything. I suppose that is, in part, why we are having this discussion. However, I personally
have a far greater interest here than in just having a public dialogue with Thomas Thrasher. Our discussion is
merely a means to a far greater end. My ultimate purpose is to utilize this opportunity to share with the public
God's marvelous Truth with regard to the nature of man and the final destiny of the wicked. That glorious Truth
has been so suppressed by the false teachings of the past that it was virtually unperceivable to men today.
It is time to strip away the garbage to reveal the treasure beneath. It is this I have sought to do via this venue.
For this reason I have indeed raised some of the traditional arguments for the false teaching Thomas embraces,
even though Thomas himself may not have raised those particular points in the course of this discussion.
They are arguments the readers likely have heard before, and would likely have heard from Thomas at some
point in our dialogue. They have been paraded before the unperceiving public long enough; it is time to refute
them. Yes, Thomas, I have indeed put forth arguments you yourself had not yet made (and perhaps would
not have), but they are the arguments proffered by the traditionalist camp and thus must be addressed in any
reasoned response to and refutation of that position.
This discussion between us is with the readers in mind .... at least, it is for ME. I am under no illusions that I
will convict you of your error, as you are likely under no illusions that you will sway me from my own
convictions. However, there are readers literally all across the globe who are reading this exchange in
the hope of finding something that might help them better understand exactly what God teaches on this
subject. There is tremendous confusion in the world on this topic, and thus we both have a responsibility
to the readers to take this exchange seriously, and to stand securely behind Truth rather than Tradition.
We also have a responsibility to the readers to present God's Truth in as timely and responsible a fashion
as we possibly can. This will indeed require sacrifices on our part, but Truth deserves no less .... and so do
our readers. Some delays in our responses to one another are obviously unavoidable; some, however, are
blatantly irresponsible. Thomas and I are both very, very busy men with many responsibilities. I would
place my schedule against his any day, and we can both very easily demonstrate that there just aren't
enough hours in the day! Yet, we both gladly embrace these challenges and seek to serve the Lord to the
best of our abilities and opportunities.
I do not question my friend's zeal and devotion to the Lord, but I do have some serious doubts about some
of his tactics with regard to this dialogue between us. When he intentionally delayed his previous post to
this list, and then submitted it just prior to midnight, that was most disturbing because it evidenced a
willingness to deprive the readers to spite an opponent. I was not the only one to notice this, and it
generated not a few private posts to me. It was suggested that I put this possible spirit of pettiness
to the test to determine if indeed this is what was happening, or if that delay was simply a fluke. After
all, the Bible tells us to "test the spirits to see whether they are from God" (1 John 4:1). Thus, on advice,
I stated at the end of my last post:
The advice was: If indeed there is a spirit of pettiness at work here, the next post will not appear until day 40
at the very last minute possible. I held out hope that this would not be the case, but I agreed it needed to be
tested. My opponent's credibility needed to be determined.
Sadly, on day 40 (yesterday) Thomas wrote a very brief statement to me in which he simply said, "I think today
is the end of your 40-days of patience. I will be sending my article." That was in the early morning. His article
showed up after midnight that night. As predicted, he waited until the last possible moment. Readers, this
is nothing less than premeditated pettiness. It evidences a spirit of spitefulness for one's opponent, and
little to no regard for responsible presentation of Truth or concern for those readers eagerly searching for
enlightenment. It truly grieved my heart to see this prediction prove true. I had hoped for better from
Thomas, a man who professes to be a leader in the church of our Lord Jesus Christ.
However, I shall not allow this to deter me from my commitment to my God and to these readers to
responsibly present the Truth on this vital subject. After all, Paul even gave thanks when some were
"preaching Christ from envy and strife .... thinking to cause me distress" (Philp. 1:15, 17), because it still
provided an opportunity for Truth to be heard.
I found little in Thomas' eighth article that necessitates a response beyond what I have already provided
in-depth previously. Again, it is obvious we agree on very little. Thus, I shall proceed with a presentation
of what I believe God's Truth to be on the ultimate destiny of the unredeemed, and in so doing enter the final
phase of our dialogue on this topic.
AN OVERVIEW OF THE END
With this particular post I want to begin what might be called "an introduction to the conclusion." In other words,
what does the Bible teach us with regard to that final day when the Lord returns, when the dead are raised, and
when judgment occurs? What will be the ultimate destiny of both the wicked and the redeemed?
Scripture informs us that the dead, both righteous and wicked, sleep in the dust of the ground awaiting the
trumpet blast which will awaken them on that final day. The prophet Daniel speaks of that day in which
"those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace
and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2). The prophecy of Daniel ends with this promise to the righteous,
"you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age" (Daniel 12:13).
Jesus promised, "I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what
he has done" (Revelation 22:12). The "rewards" to be dispensed to all men (both righteous and wicked) will
not occur until Jesus returns. Then, on that day, a great judging and separation will occur among those raised
from the dead. This does not occur in some intermediate holding area prior to the coming of Christ. Our Lord's
"reward" comes with Him, it is not given out beforehand.
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the
trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught
up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and THUS we shall always be with the Lord"
(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). The manner in which we shall encounter our Lord is declared to be through a
resurrection from the dead, and a gathering up to Him. It is not through some trapped spirit-being flying instantly
off to glory at the moment of physical death. It is at the resurrection that we are gathered to our Lord and
receive our reward .... not before. It will occur "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet"
(1 Corinthians 15:52). At that time we shall be changed; this mortal will "put on" immortality, and "THEN
will come about the saying that is written, 'Death is swallowed up in victory'" (1 Corinthians 15:54).
We experience the victory over death, the final enemy, at the resurrection when we are changed by the putting
on of immortality, which is a gift of God to the raised redeemed on the last day. The victory isn't won experientially at the
moment of physical death; the victory is won at the last trumpet when we are raised up out of the grave and
given life everlasting.
The fate of the wicked, however, is less enviable. They too shall be raised from their graves in the dust of
the ground (or from wherever their physical remains may have been scattered). Some shall come forth from
the depths of the sea, for example (Rev. 20:13). But all the dead shall be raised up for the purpose of final
judgment. The righteous, as already noted, shall be gathered up to Christ and shall put on immortality.
Thus, LIFE shall be imparted unto them, and they shall always be together with the Lord in the new heavens
and earth.
The wicked, however, have no such promise. The promise to them is that they shall experience the full and
final outpouring of God's wrath. It will be a day in which God, a Consuming Fire, will utterly consume them in
His fury. It will be such a complete destruction that it is described in the most fearful terms throughout Scripture.
The destruction of the wicked is likened unto the burning up of chaff. All it leaves is ashes. This certainly does
not depict continued life for the wicked, but an ultimate extinction of life. Peter declared that "the present heavens
and earth ... are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men" (2 Peter 3:7).
Since the earth, and all within it, is to be destroyed in such a manner, "what sort of people ought you to be in holy
conduct and godliness?" (vs. 11). The fate of the righteous will not be a "burning up" along with the present
heavens and earth, but rather a preservation and an everlasting dwelling in the "new heavens and a new earth,
in which righteousness dwells" (vs. 13).
The fire that consumes the old heavens and earth will also consume the wicked who lived upon it and devoted
themselves to it (2 Peter 3:7). A new heavens and earth will be prepared for the righteous, one in which
righteousness dwells, and we shall forever dwell in sweet fellowship there with our Lord and His other
children. The wicked will be nothing more than ashes under our feet. In other words, the figure portrays
the reality that they are gone forever.
This, admittedly, is just an overview of the final destiny of all men (both redeemed and unredeemed). I have
not gone into great depth of detail, but will reserve that for future posts in response to almost certain challenges
by Thomas. In the above I merely sought to give a sketchy scenario of what I believe the Bible teaches on this
matter. We shall flesh the skeleton out in subsequent exchanges.
Where Thomas and I obviously differ greatly is with regard to the nature of the ultimate destiny of the wicked.
Thus, the title of our debate: "The Eternal Destiny of the Wicked -- Perpetual Torment or Ultimate Extinction?"
Thomas believes the wicked will be mercilessly and everlastingly tortured by God. I believe the Bible teaches
the wicked will experience death rather than life, and that it will be a death and destruction from which there
will be no future resurrection or restoration. It will be the permanent cessation of life, not the preservation of
life for the purpose of inflicting endless torture. The remainder of this debate will focus on this theological
difference.
THE TYPES & SHADOWS
As one examines the many biblical examples of God's dealings with the wicked, it will be quickly perceived
that not one single time in all of recorded biblical teaching is the punishment for sin against God ever declared
to be torture. The ultimate punishment, instead, is always declared to be death. Thus, if indeed God's final
punishment for the wicked is endless torture (as Thomas maintains), it is a fate completely without biblical
precedent. Nowhere does God ever use torture as divine punishment. Not even once!
After examining a great many of the types and shadows of the OT which speak of God's dealings with the
wicked, brother Curtis Dickinson observed, "It will be noted that in each case the thing that was threatened
was DEATH, not incessant torture. The types and shadows in no instance teach the idea of an immortal
soul or eternal spirit being tortured as the punishment for sin. In ALL cases they show the penalty for sin
to be the death of the person" (What The Bible Teaches About Immortality and Future Punishment, p. 20).
Again, there is simply ZERO biblical evidence in all the many examples of God's dealings with the unrepentant
wicked of His punishment for sin ever constituting incessant torture. Such a penalty, as evidenced in God's
many dealings with man, is entirely absent from the Scriptures. Thus, again, if God's final punishment is
indeed perpetual torture, it is a punishment without precedent. Death and destruction, on the other hand,
is a punishment with enormous biblical precedent. It should also be noted that the language of Scripture
easily lends itself to this destiny of the wicked. Note the following list of NT expressions regarding
the final disposition of the wicked (which is taken from Leroy Edwin Froom's monumental two volume, 2000
page study The Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers):
"If God intended for us to understand something other than total death for the wicked, certainly He could have
found the means in the marvelous Greek language to express such. Instead He used the plainest terms
indicating destruction of the whole man" (Curtis Dickinson, What The Bible Teaches About Immortality and
Future Punishment, p. 21). Leroy Edwin Froom observes, "The OT uses 50 different verbs in the Hebrew
language to describe the final fate of the wicked, and they all signify different aspects of destruction"
(The Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers, Vol. 1, p. 106).
Brother Dickinson continues: "The Old Testament presents four great events which portray two principal facts
of Judgment Day: (1) The deliverance of God's own people, and (2) The certain destruction of His enemies.
The events are:
None of those prototypes of Judgment Day give the slightest support to the idea of punishment by torture"
(What The Bible Teaches About Immortality and Future Punishment, p. 37). In addition to the above, suggested
by brother Dickinson, one should also not overlook:
"Everywhere we find the notion of a final cessation of being, of a return to a state of unconsciousness, never
that of a perpetual life in suffering" (Emmanuel Petavel, The Problem of Immortality).
My opponent will make an effort to try and demonstrate that our loving, compassionate, merciful God will be
content with nothing less than the perpetual, never diminishing, horrific torture of the vast majority of mankind.
Not only is that not what the Scriptures teach, it has the distinct disadvantage of portraying our God as a
Monster the likes of which the human mind cannot even conceive. It is to proclaim a God foreign to the
inspired revelation. Thus, it is a mockery of Truth and a blasphemy against Deity.
THE CONSUMING FIRE
The Bible teaches a different reality for the wicked. They will be consumed in the fire, not preserved. There is
no question but what the lake of fire will be a horrific experience. An execution is not a pleasant event, and
degrees of torment are involved for the one being put to death. As one who stood inside the death chamber at the side
of a man (not two feet away) who was executed by the State of New Mexico on November 6, 2001, and who looked into his
eyes as he breathed his last breath, I can assure you that weeping, gnashing of teeth, and deep torment
accompany the death experience. However, the ultimate punishment is DEATH itself, not the DYING process.
Nowhere has our God prescribed incessant torture as the "wages of sin" or the penalty of lawlessness.
Consider the following passage as representative of this perspective --- Matthew 3:10, 12.
Trees with bad fruit are burned (Matthew 7:19), and so are unfruitful vines (John 15:6) and useless weeds
(Matthew 13:40). These figures are all employed to depict the fate of sinners at the final reckoning.
They will be cast into "unquenchable fire." This is the Greek word "asbestos" which means "inextinguishable."
It describes a fire which burns without interruption; it is an enduring fire which none can extinguish no matter
how hard they might try. It is important to notice here, however, that it is the fire that Jesus describes as
enduring, NOT that which is cast into it. To try and transfer the quality of endurance from the fire itself to
that which is cast into it is completely unwarranted either grammatically, logically or theologically.
That which is cast into the fire will BURN UP. This is the Greek word "katakaio" which means "to burn up;
consume." It signifies to completely, utterly, totally destroy with fire. It is enlightening to us in this study
to note that this word is used in the LXX (Septuagint) in Exodus 3:2 where Moses beholds a burning bush ---
"The bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was NOT consumed." This particular bush was preserved in
the fire (what Thomas assumes will happen with the wicked), yet Jesus disagrees with Thomas. Jesus
informs us that sinners will NOT be preserved in the fire (like the burning bush was), but rather will be "burned
up" --- just the opposite of preservation. Thus, the view of final punishment promoted by Thomas is actually
in direct opposition to the teaching of Jesus Christ. Jesus says the wicked will NOT be preserved in the fire,
Thomas says they WILL. Jesus says they will be consumed in the fire (unlike the burning bush), Thomas
says just the opposite (that they will endure without being consumed, just as the bush did). I don't know
about the readers of this debate, but I will choose to embrace the teaching of Jesus over that of Thomas!
I'm reminded of the words of Edward White, in his classic work Life In Christ, in which he emphatically
stated, "My mind fails to conceive a grosser misinterpretation of language than when the five or six
strongest words which the Greek tongue possesses, signifying 'destroy' or 'destruction,' are explained
to mean maintaining an everlasting but wretched existence. To translate black as white is nothing to this."
Our God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29; Deuteronomy 4:24), and nothing unholy will long remain when
He unleashes his fiery wrath at the last day. It will be consumed, not preserved, in the outpouring of His
wrath. In the apostle Peter's second recorded sermon, for example, he alludes to Deut. 18 and declares
to his hearers, "And it shall be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed
from among the people" (Acts 3:23). "That prophet," of course, is a reference to Jesus Christ. Those who
do not heed Him will be called to account. The penalty for their rejection of Him will be "utter destruction."
This is the Greek word "exolothreuo" which appears only here in all the New Covenant documents. It means
to "exterminate; utterly destroy" (The Analytical Greek Lexicon); "to slay wholly" (Vine's Expository Dictionary
of NT Words); "to destroy utterly; extirpate -- complete extermination" (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon).
The Expositor's Greek Testament says that if this passage has "any eschatological bearing, it would
support the theory of annihilation!" In other words, this term is just that emphatic a declaration of
extermination and annihilation. At the very least, it is hardly supportive of the view of Thomas
Thrasher, who suggests the wicked will not be utterly destroyed, but rather preserved alive forevermore
for the purpose of perpetual torture.
At the risk of elevating Thomas' blood pressure, I'm going to provide a rather lengthy excerpt from brother
Edward Fudge's marvelous study The Fire That Consumes. I believe the following puts the issue into
perspective, and reflects my own thinking quite well. Thus, I will let him express my own convictions
at this point:
Some have suggested this view of final punishment "endangers the faith." Henry Constable, over a hundred
years ago, answered this charge this way, "Does it imperil our faith in God? What attribute of His is attacked?
His love? Is it the part of love to inflict eternal pain if it can be helped? His mercy? Is it the part of mercy never
to be satisfied with the misery of others? His holiness? Is it essential to holiness to keep evil forever in
existence? His justice? Can justice only be satisfied with everlasting agonies? NO; we do not endanger
faith. We strengthen it, by allying it once more with the divine principles of mercy, equity, and justice. It
is the Augustinian (traditionalist) theory which endangers faith, and has made shipwreck of faith in the
case of multitudes, by representing God as a Being of boundless injustice, caprice and cruelty" (Duration
and Nature of Future Punishment, p. 166).
THE UNDYING WORM
I would like to conclude this present post by simply noticing a couple of the more prominent passages the
traditionalists seek to employ in an effort to promote their "perpetual torture" theory. Thomas will undoubtedly
raise additional passages which we will examine in-depth later in this exchange. One of the more popular
references in the "arsenal" of the traditionalist is the "undying worm."
In speaking of Gehenna, Jesus describes it as a place "where their worm does not die, and the fire is not
quenched" (Mark 9:48). Some versions repeat this phrase in verses 44 and 46, although there is little
textual evidence for such. Thus, most translations, based on a superior Greek text, include it only in
verse 48. What is Jesus suggesting here? Is He really describing a place where maggots are immortal?
Or is this merely an allusion to symbols and figures found in the OT writings? I believe the latter is clearly
the case. Or, to use the wording of the Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, this passage "is
purely figurative" (Vol. 5, p. 969).
Jesus is referring to the prophecy of Isaiah. In the final statement of this book of prophecy we find a judgment
scene, and we see the joy of God's people as they behold His righteous judgment on their behalf against His
(and their) enemies.
Please note here that the text says the Lord will SLAY these ungodly ones, it does not declare the Lord will
TORTURE them. Notice also that the redeemed will be able to witness the RESULT of this destruction
carried out by God against the wicked:
Please note once again that there is absolutely NO MENTION of the wicked being tortured alive forever and
ever!! Indeed, just the opposite. The only thing the redeemed behold are CORPSES. The wicked are DEAD.
They have been SLAIN by the fury of God's fire and sword. Thus, all that the redeemed see is evidence of
death and destruction. It is one huge scene of abhorrence and shame. It is a giant garbage dump composed
of the dead corpses of the wicked. They are not writhing in pain and screaming out in anguish. They are not
being tortured in endless misery. They are dead!!
What is all this a figure of? If one studies the history of armies and warfare during ancient times one will
discover a very common practice of those who were the conquerors. They would lead the people they had
set free (and even those they had captured) out to the scene of the battle, and there they would make them
look upon the bodies of the defeated army. In some cases this was to strike fear into the conquered people;
to let them know their army was gone and could no longer fight for them. In other cases, it was to instill
disgust in the hearts of those who beheld these slain ones. It also served as an occasion of joy for those
who had been liberated from the ravages of this now defeated and destroyed army. The liberated would
behold the lifeless corpses of those who had oppressed them, and they would see these slain ones
being consumed by maggots (the "worms") and by the fires that had been set to burn them up so as to
prevent the spread of disease. "Corruption (the worm) and burning (fire) are mentioned together as the
two most common ways of disposing of dead bodies" (Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New
Testament, Vol. 7, p. 454).
Barnes is quick to point out, however, that this is figurative language, even though it draws from literal
historical practice. He writes, "It is not to be supposed that there will be any 'real' worm in hell." It merely
represented the truth that the consumption would continue until the destruction was complete. Kittel writes,
"The worm does not die until it has completed its work and the bones as well as the flesh of the dead are
consumed, so that all hope of restoration to life is extinguished. The expression thus denotes total destruction."
W.E. Vine, in his Expository Dictionary of OT & NT Words, stresses that "the statement signifies the
exclusion of hope of restoration, the punishment being eternal." In other words, our Lord is referring to
the final punishment of the wicked, and He is indicating it will be a destruction and death so complete
and total that there will never, ever be any hope of restoration to life. The wicked will be utterly consumed
by actions that can't be stymied by the victims; the "worm" and "fire" will continue unabated as they
consume completely that which is committed to them.
In commenting on the passage in Isaiah 66:24, The Expositor's Bible Commentary states, "A
comparison with Jeremiah 7:32 - 8:3 strongly suggests the prophet has the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna,
in mind. Mark 9:48, in its context, applies this to eternal punishment" (Vol. 6, p. 354). I agree that Jesus
has this location outside the walls of Jerusalem in mind, and that He is using it figuratively to convey a
message of doom for the godless.
Part of this valley was committed to use as the garbage dump of Jerusalem. It is reported by writers who
lived at that time that there were always fires burning or smoldering in the dump, and that numerous
maggots ("worms") could be found there consuming the waste. At times notorious criminals were cast
DEAD into the garbage outside the walls of Jerusalem (sounds like a scene in Revelation, doesn't it? --- the
wicked being cast into Gehenna which is outside the walls of the New Jerusalem). The bodies of these
criminals were allowed to lie there (instead of receiving a proper burial, something cherished by the Jews)
and to be consumed by the maggots and the fires that were always present in that foul and loathsome place.
It was a scene of abhorrence and shame. Few wanted to end their days cast into the garbage to become
food for maggots and fire.
This is the image Jesus is presenting to us in His statement. A day will come when the Lord will
appear in judgment against His enemies. He will SLAY them with fire and sword, and their dead bodies will
be cast into the garbage dump (Gehenna) outside the walls of the New Jerusalem. There the righteous will
witness the effects of this great destruction --- the dead will be piled high in testimony of the victory of God
over the forces arrayed against Him, and these corpses shall be utterly consumed so that they will never
pose a threat to the people of God again.
Please note that absolutely nothing whatsoever is said, either by Jesus or Isaiah, about the bodies of the
wicked being either conscious, alive or tortured. They are dead. They are corpses. They have been slain.
The only thing mentioned which "does not die" is the worm. If Thomas is looking for something immortal
in these passages, the only thing he might find is maggots!! Both the fire and the worms are said to be
enduring. Such is NOT stated with reference to their victims.
Even if one allows that maggots might truly be immortal (which, of course, they are not), it says nothing about that upon which they feast.
Indeed, the OT Scriptures, from which the "worm" figure is drawn, declare these maggots feast upon
corpses .... not upon the living. These are really not difficult figures to interpret if one will simply take
note of the type of literature one is seeking to interpret, and if one will further recognize that the interpretation
of many of these figures is to be found within the inspired writings themselves, and not in the false
fancies of paganism.
A careful exegesis of these passages in which mention is made of the "undying worm" will reveal they do
not support the false doctrine of perpetual torture of the unredeemed. Indeed, sound exegesis demonstrates
just the opposite reality. They portray the utter consummation of the unredeemed.
REVELATION 14:9-11
The above passage has long been employed as "proof positive" that the wicked will experience perpetual
torture at the hands of a just and merciful God following the final judgment on that last day. Without question
there are a few words and phrases in this passage that, on the surface, tend to suggest such a scenario.
A deeper, more responsible exegesis, however, will demonstrate such teaching to be without foundation.
"These dogmatic interpretations of Revelation 14:9-11 as proof of a literal, eternal torment reveal a lack of
sensitivity to the highly metaphorical language of the passage" (Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi, Immortality or
Resurrection? -- A Biblical Study on Human Nature and Destiny, p. 211).
As previously noted in this debate, if one fails to perceive the unique nature of the literature of Revelation,
one will completely fail to perceive and correctly interpret the meaning of the passage in question.
Brother Curtis Dickinson wrote, "The apostle John used language and symbols familiar to the people to
whom he wrote, yet veiled to the world which was persecuting them. The Christians were familiar with Old
Testament Scripture, so much of the Revelation utilized events recorded there" (What The Bible Teaches
About Immortality and Future Punishment, p. 32). Understanding that this is highly figurative apocalyptic
literature, largely based on OT imagery, is critical to sound exegesis. Therefore, we must carefully
examine the four primary statements made with regard to the punishment of the wicked:
ONE --- "...he will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the
cup of His anger" (vs. 10). The symbol of a cup of wine, representing the fierce anger of God, is common to
OT literature. When a nation or people drink of this cup the result is destruction at the hand of God. The Lord
told the prophet Jeremiah, "Take this cup of the wine of wrath from My hand, and cause all the nations, to
whom I send you, to drink it. And they shall drink and stagger and go mad because of the sword that I will
send among them" (Jeremiah 25:15-16). "Drink, be drunk, vomit, fall, and rise no more because of the sword
which I will send among you" (vs. 27).
This is a destruction which would be absolute!! "They will drink and swallow, and become as if they had
never existed" (Obadiah 16). Just two verses later the prophecy changes to the figure of fire as the agent
of punishment. The house of Esau is likened unto "stubble." It will be "set on fire and consumed," and
"there will be no survivor of the house of Esau" (vs. 18).
"In the hand of the Lord is a cup full of foaming wine mixed with spices; He pours it out, and all the wicked of
the earth drink it down to its very dregs" (Psalm 75:8). To drink this down to the dregs symbolizes a complete,
total punishment, not just a partial one. It is a full and furious outpouring of wrath. Let not the wicked think
they shall escape this fate, for "the cup in the Lord's right hand will come around to you" (Habakkuk 2:16).
Job prays that the wicked may "drink of the wrath of the Almighty" (Job 21:20).
These are passages which speak of destruction and extinction as a result of experiencing the wrath
of the Almighty. It is not torture but termination that is consistently in view. It speaks of no survivors, of
chaff being burned up in fire, and of the wicked becoming "as if they had never existed." The wrath of God
will be unmixed (undiluted), full and furious, and FINAL. How could one possibly survive such an encounter?
"But who can endure the day of His coming? Who can stand when He appears?" (Malachi 3:2). The answer
is: NO ONE!!
There is nothing whatsoever in the figure of the cup of the wine of God's wrath that suggests perpetual
torture of the wicked. Indeed, the OT references strongly suggest just the opposite: a fearful destruction
which is total and complete; one from which there will never, ever be any restoration or recovery or survivor.
TWO --- "...and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy
angels and in the presence of the Lamb" (vs. 10). This statement immediately brings to mind the fate of
Sodom & Gomorrah. "Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out
of heaven" (Genesis 19:24). The overthrow of Assyria is also depicted in similar language: "The breath of
the Lord, like a torrent of brimstone, sets it afire" (Isaiah 30:33). If you read the entire context (vs. 27-33) you
will see God's tongue characterized as "a consuming fire" .... God is "burning in His anger, and dense is His
smoke" .... His judgment against Assyria will "be seen in fierce anger, and in the flame of a consuming fire."
God also warned Edom that "a day of vengeance" was coming in which "its streams shall be turned into pitch,
and its loose earth into brimstone, and its land shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night
or day; its smoke shall go up forever" (Isaiah 34:8-10). This would also be the fate of Gog, as prophesied
by the prophet Ezekiel. "And with pestilence and with blood I shall enter into judgment with him; and I
shall rain on him, and on his troops, and on the many peoples who are with him, a torrential rain, with
hailstones, fire, and brimstone" (Ezekiel 38:22).
It is very obvious that the passage in Revelation (14:9-11) has its roots firmly grounded in Old Covenant
history and literature. Each of the four aspects of the punishment specified are taken directly from the
pages of the OT Scriptures. They are symbols. Nothing more. They symbolize a fearful judgment in
which God will pour out upon His enemies His full and final wrath, a wrath so consuming that all will
vanish away before it. They will be completely consumed like stubble in an unstoppable fire, like chaff
in a molten river. Nothing will be left but ashes (Malachi 4:1-3).
Is there "torment" involved in death by fire? Absolutely!! Men recoil in horror at the thought of perishing
in a fire. Few prospects instill as much terror in the hearts of men. Thus, God employed this figure
repeatedly to show the seriousness and wretchedness of the fate awaiting those who oppose Him. The
wicked will indeed experience "torment" (and indescribable torment, at that) when they are consumed in
the fury of His wrath.
The figure of "fire and brimstone" is used repeatedly in the OT Scriptures to represent utter destruction. It is
never used to convey perpetual torture. Yes, those being destroyed utterly will experience torment as they
are being consumed by the wrath of God. Suffering is a natural part of the process of destruction. However,
there is nothing in these figures that suggests God preserves the wicked for the purpose of endlessly heaping
upon them unimaginable tortures and torments. Yes, there is pain associated with death & destruction, but
it is the latter that is the true punishment, not the former.
In Revelation 18 we see depicted the fall of Babylon (which again is pure symbolism, and is not speaking literally of
the ancient city of Babylon). The merchants and kings and others who consorted with her see "the smoke of
her burning" and they stand at a distance because of the fearfulness "of her torment" (vs. 10, 15), and yet we
know that "in one hour she has been laid waste" (vs. 19) and "will not be found any longer" (vs. 21). Yes,
there is the presence of torment in the destruction of the wicked, and it will be a fearful thing to behold. But
when the chaff is burned up it will be "found no more." The figures are not figures representing perpetual
torture. On the contrary. They represent utter destruction. A destruction witnessed by the angels and the
Lamb. "Angels who through the ages had watched the unfolding and revealing of God's eternal purpose
and the conflict between good and evil, now see the consummation of that purpose and final consequence
of evil" (Homer Hailey, Revelation: An Introduction and Commentary, p. 310).
THREE --- "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever" (vs. 11). When God
poured out His fiery judgment upon Edom, the land would become desolate and "its smoke shall go up forever"
(Isaiah 34:10). Is smoke still rising in that area? Of course not. This is figurative language. It conveys utter
destruction. Nothing is left. The smoke is a testimony to the enduring destruction caused by the consuming
fire. It is a visible witness of the powerful destruction that has been effected by the outpouring of God's
wrath. The sword of God had descended "in judgment on Edom, the people I have totally destroyed" (vs. 5).
When Abraham arose the next morning and looked out over the area which had previously contained the cities
of Sodom and Gomorrah, "he saw, and behold, the smoke of the land ascended like the smoke of a furnace"
(Genesis 19:28). Were those cities still there? Were the inhabitants still there being tortured in that fire from
out of heaven? No, of course not. They were gone!!! All that remained was the testimony of the smoke; a
witness to the power of God's consuming fire!! The cities and their inhabitants had been "reduced to ashes"
(2 Peter 2:6) when they experienced the "punishment of eternal fire" (Jude 7). They thus serve as an example
of the fate of the wicked (2 Peter 2:6) at the final judgment, who will also be reduced to ashes by the outpouring
of God's wrath in a consuming fire (2 Peter 3:7f; Malachi 4:1-3).
It is extremely important to notice what is NOT said in the above statement. It does NOT say the wicked are
tormented forever and ever. It says the SMOKE of their torment GOES UP forever and ever. That is a major
distinction. It is not the destroying process, torturous though it will be, that is depicted as being enduring.
Rather, it is the testimony and evidence of that utter destruction that is enduring. When God completely and
permanently destroys the wicked, that will be a judgment forever noted in the hearts and minds of the
redeemed. NO MORE will the wicked be found to oppress them. They are gone, and gone forever, and
they are assured of that reality forevermore!! This is the significance of the "forever ascending smoke" --- it
is a forever testimony to the enduring judgment of God against all that opposed Him and His people. Like
the rainbow, it is a forever, visible reminder of God's judgment. Now, whether there will literally be smoke
visible to the saints throughout eternity, or whether this is merely a symbol of the reality of that blessed
assurance, is arguable. I personally tend to think that the smoke will not be literally present, but God is
merely suggesting by this symbol that the evidence of the utter destruction of the wicked will be evident to
us in some way, and we need never again doubt that their destruction has been forever accomplished.
Again, absolutely nothing is said about the torment being "forever and ever" in this passage. Rather it is
ascending smoke that is said to be an enduring testimony. One may perhaps assume the torment continues,
but to do so flies in the face of the remainder of Scripture, and contradicts the OT allusions employed. Thus,
it is an assumption with no basis in biblical teaching. "The wicked will perish, and the enemies of the Lord
will be like the flowers of the pastures; they vanish -- like smoke they vanish away" (Psalm 37:20).
FOUR --- "...and they have no rest day and night" (vs. 11). "The phrase 'they have no rest,
day or night' (Rev. 14:11) is interpreted by traditionalists as descriptive of the eternal torment of hell. The
phrase, however, denotes the continuity and not the eternal duration of an action" (Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi,
Immortality or Resurrection? -- A Biblical Study on Human Nature and Destiny, p. 213).
This particular phrase refers to uninterrupted continuity until a desired goal is achieved. There will be no
breaks, no reprieve, no relaxing, no respite until the purpose has been accomplished. Some people, for
example, when trying to break a world record (like riding a roller coaster) will take regular breaks in order
to go to the bathroom or to catch a quick nap. There will be no breaks for rest, neither by day nor by night,
when destruction is poured out upon the wicked. It will continue until completed!!
Dr. Harold Guillebaud correctly explains that this phrase "certainly says that there will be no break or
intermission in the suffering of the followers of the Beast, while it continues; but in itself it does not say
that it will continue forever" (The Righteous Judge: A Study of the Biblical Doctrine of Everlasting
Punishment, p. 24).
This can clearly be seen, and this interpretation substantiated, in the destruction of Edom. This nation would
experience the fire and brimstone of the Lord's fierce wrath, and "it shall not be quenched night or day; its
smoke shall go up forever" (Isaiah 34:10). We know for a fact that the "fire and brimstone" spoken of with
reference to Edom did indeed cease when its "work of destruction" had been accomplished. Thus, the
idiomatic phrase "not quenched night or day" (a Hebraism) clearly referred to continuity, not perpetuity.
I see no exegetical reason to suggest otherwise with the passage in Revelation 14.
This expression is found repeatedly in the OT writings (from which Revelation draws very heavily). "You
will live in constant suspense, filled with dread both night and day, never sure of your life" (Deut. 28:66).
It would be an unrelenting dread; one which never lessened. Just as the wrath of God would be unrelenting
upon those who experienced it. There would be no break, no "time out," no letting up. In Psalm 32 David
described the torment he felt over his sin -- "For day and night your hand was heavy upon me; my strength
was sapped as in the heat of summer" (vs. 4). The picture here is of unrelenting torment of the inner man;
God's hand heavy upon him. God did not relent until the desired result was achieved -- repentance! His
hand was heavy upon him day and night, without rest, until he was brought to the desired goal of repentance.
CONCLUSION
I again plead with my brother in Christ, and fellow leader in the churches of Christ, to join with me in evidencing
a spirit of genuine concern for our readers and for a responsible, reasonable and timely presentation of our
respective views. This dialogue is not about one of us besting the other, it is about a quest for ultimate Truth.
If we will just keep that uppermost in our hearts and minds then perhaps we can glorify our God in this exchange
and help our readers come to an educated conviction as to the nature of Truth.
Thomas, let's bring this dialogue to a positive and noble conclusion as befits two dedicated servants of the Lord.
God is neither honored, nor our readers edified or educated, by a spirit of pettiness.
May God richly bless each of you in your quest for greater understanding.
and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand,
he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God,
which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger;
and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the
presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever;
and they have no rest day and night, those who worship
the beast and his image, and whoever receives
the mark of his name."