Maxey - Thrasher Debate

Eternal Destiny of the Wicked
Perpetual Torment or Ultimate Extinction
(An In-Depth Biblical Discussion)

Monday, October 14, 2002

Comments by Thomas Thrasher
On Al Maxey's Last Response

I have repeatedly urged Al to forego the multitude of "scholarly" quotations that have permeated his articles. He has persisted in this practice, using many thousands of words. However, he has expressed agreement with me that an uninspired man's opinion in "no way serves the purpose of providing proof or validation of one's views." He stated in his fifth article: "Yes, both of us could quote a host of men (known and unknown, reputable and otherwise) who agree with our respective positions. And, yes, this is no way serves the purpose of providing proof or validation of one's views. Such is not my intention ..."

Why, then, does he persist in profusely quoting their opinions? He explained, "When one can demonstrate that a concept has been successfully promoted and defended throughout man's history, and by some of the 'giants of faith' in religious history, this tends to cause some to give the matter a more serious look. It certainly doesn't PROVE the doctrine, but when reputable scholars for centuries have ably proclaimed and defended such a teaching, one should not discount that body of testimony lightly." In view of Al's persistence in this matter, and because I think that some people may be swayed to a position on the basis of what so-called "scholars" have written, I am going to deviate from my previous approach in this one article. I am going to quote numerous men relating to the various aspects of our discussion. These do not prove what the truth is! However, they will serve to demonstrate that there are "scholars" on both sides of this issue. Consequently, we need to "search the Scriptures" (not the ideas or opinions of men) "to find out whether these things are so."

THE NATURE OF MAN

"Misconceptions abound in our world relative to the basic nature of man.... Materialists view man as wholly mortal. There is nothing that survives him at death. Like Rover, the dog, he is dead all over at death. This view denies man a spirit or an entity that outlives his fleshly tabernacle of clay.... Then there is the Biblical view ..." (Robert R. Taylor, Jr. Introducing the Church of Christ. Fort Worth, TX: Star Bible Publications, 1981. Page 177).

"There are passages which set forth man as a dual being --- possessive of body and spirit. In Ecclesiastes 12:7 Solomon speaks of the body which goes to dust from whence it came but the spirit goes to God its giver. James 2:26 speaks of the death of the body at the time the spirit vacates the tabernacle of clay. Jesus warns us not to fear killers of the body but fear him who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell (Matt. 10:28). These passages treat man as a dual being." (Robert R. Taylor, Jr. Introducing the Church of Christ. Fort Worth, TX: Star Bible Publications, 1981. Page 179).

"God has given man an immortal soul. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were alive for they had immortal souls as do all God's human creation. In this man differs from the beast." (Dudley Ross Spears. "An Answer to Jehovah's Witness Error." The Gospel Guardian. XI:9. July 9, 1959. Page 14).

"Soul is used in a number of ways.... (5) The soul is used synonymously with the spirit to refer to man's immortal nature that survives the body and earthly life. When body, soul and spirit are all used, we are speaking of the fleshly tabernacle of clay, the earthly life that inhabits it and that immortal part which is made in God's image ..." (Robert R. Taylor, Jr. Introducing the Church of Christ. Fort Worth, TX: Star Bible Publications, 1981. Page 180).

"In our present passage ([Matthew] 10:28, twice) it [psuche] is clearly the immaterial and invisible part of man, as contrasted with the material and visible." (William Hendriksen. New Testament Commentary: Exposition of the Gospel According to Matthew. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1973. Footnote on page 471).

"When Jesus was transfigured, the apostles saw him talking with Moses and Elijah (Matt. 17:3). Moses had been dead about fifteen hundred years and Elijah had been gone for about a thousand years. Yet they still existed and were still Moses and Elijah. They were conscious. Moses did not go out of existence at death." (Albert Gardner. Introducing the Church of Christ. Fort Worth, TX: Star Bible Publications, 1981. Page 189).

"Man is a spirit, contrary to materialism.... God's image is found in the inner man or the spirit ... Four hundred years after Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were dead ... these men as spirits still lived (Ex. 3:6; Mt. 22:29-32).... Materialism is the view that man is a body without the inner man of the spirit. This theory is held by atheists, evolutionists, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, ... and others." (Ron Halbrook. The Christian and Sin. Indianapolis, IN: Faith and Facts Press, 1993. Pages 8-9).

"... man partakes of God's immortal nature by receiving a spirit that is in God's image (Gen. 1:27; Heb. 12:9).... That which is immortal cannot be annihilated. Therefore, the spirit -- the immortal part of man, cannot be annihilated."" (John W. Wilson. "The Word of God or the Watchtower." The Gospel Guardian. XI:39. February 12, 1960. Page 5).

"Jesus distinguished the soul from the physical body: 'And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.' (Matt. 10:28.) ... Physical death is not the final end of the soul of man, even though the dead body decays in the earth." (Willard Collins. "Man's Most Valuable Possession." Gospel Advocate. LXXXIV:4. January 22, 1942. Page 78).

HADES

"Hades ... means the unseen state, the abode of the disembodied spirits." (Gordon Wilson. "What the Bible Says About Hell." The Gospel Guardian. XII:35. January 12, 1961. Page 2).

"Hades is the place of departed spirits without regard to whether they are righteous or wicked.... The rich man and Lazarus both went to hades but they were not together for they were separated by a great gulf." (Albert Gardner. Introducing the Church of Christ. Fort Worth, TX: Star Bible Publications, 1981. Page 188).

"It never denotes the grave, nor is it the permanent region of the lost; in point of time it is, for such, intermediate between decease and the doom of Gehenna. For the condition, see Luke 16:23-31." (W. E. Vine. An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words. Old Tappan, NJ: Fleming H. Revell Company, 1966. Volume II, page 188.)

"What does hades mean? ... It is the 'unseen world into which men pass at death' (James Hastings); 'the unseen realm of the dead' (Guy N. Woods); 'the place of disembodied spirits' (J. W. McGarvey); 'the unseen or the invisible world' (Thayer); 'the unseen' (Liddell and Scott); 'the invisible abode or mansion of the dead' (T. S. Green); 'the place of departed spirits' (W. J. Hickle); 'the abode of the dead' (A. T. Robertson); 'the world of departed spirits' (Sophodes)." (James Meadows. "What Does The Bible Teach?" Oxford, AL: Roger Jackson, Alton Hayes, and James Rogers, 1988. Page 89).

"They [the Rich Man and Lazarus, TNT] are in hades, -- the intermediate state. They are in the spirit land where all the departed are, and will remain until the resurrection. They have eyes and can see, tongues and can talk. 'There is a spiritual body.' It was into 'hades' that the Saviour went while his body was in the tomb (Acts 2:31). He said to the thief, 'Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." (A. G. Freed. Sermons, Chapel Talks and Debates. Nashville, TN: Gospel Advocate Company, 1930. Pages 155-156.)

"... 'hades' does not convey the idea of the place of final punishment…. Rather, it meant, 'the unseen realm,' later to convey the idea of 'the place where the spirit goes at death.' This being true, we must bear in mind that as such, it would be the receptacle for the spirit of the unrighteous as well as the righteous." (George S. Lemasters. Great Bible Doctrines. Marion, IN: Cogdill Foundation, 1975. Page 270).

"Did Jesus go there [hades, TNT] when he died? Hear Peter. 'He seeing this before spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hades, neither did his flesh see corruption' (Acts 2:31). While his body was in the tomb, his spirit was in hades.... The thief is there today with the teeming millions of those who have lived on this earth, awaiting the coming of the Lord with his mighty angels." (A. G. Freed. Sermons, Chapel Talks and Debates. Nashville, TN: Gospel Advocate Company, 1930. Page 186.)

"This body of man appears to sleep in death as it returns to dust, but the spirit or soul remains very much alive in the hadean world (1 Cor. 15:18; Mt. 10:28; 22:32)." (Ron Halbrook. The Christian and Sin. Indianapolis, IN: Faith and Facts Press, 1993. Page 9).

LUKE 16:19-31

"Why should this impressive record of facts be called 'a parable'? What is there in this startling narrative to lead one to think it is a parable? If the history of the rich man and Lazarus be a parable, what does it teach? When one calls it a parable, he speaks as the oracles of God do not speak." (A. G. Freed. Sermons, Chapel Talks and Debates. Nashville, TN: Gospel Advocate Company, 1930. Page 154.)

"Man does not cease to be at death. It is the body that sleeps in Mother Earth ... The spirit or soul is very much conscious. Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man of Luke 16:19-31 were all conscious in their widely separated compartments of Hades. The rich man knew he was in anguish and pain. Lazarus knew he was comforted in Abraham's bosom." (Robert R. Taylor, Jr. Introducing the Church of Christ. Fort Worth, TX: Star Bible Publications, 1981. Pages 180-181).

"Jehovah's Witnesses believe their organization's teaching that hades is simply the grave and that there is no conscious existence for the dead until a future resurrection. But, since Jesus' words in the verses above [Luke 16, TNT] do speak of such conscious existence, the Watchtower Society has to do something to negate those words. So they point out that the account is a parable ... Therefore, Jesus was not really talking about the condition of the dead in Luke 16, according to the Watchtower Society.... So, if the story of the rich man and Lazarus is like all the rest of Jesus' parables, it also must use a real situation to illustrate spiritual things. People must really have a conscious existence after death, and some of them must really be 'in torments,' deeply regretting their past life. Regardless of what the parable illustrates, the basic story, like the other stories Jesus told, must be taken from real life." (David A. Reed. Jehovah's Witnesses Answered Verse by Verse. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1986. Pages 63-64).

"But many times they say that [Luke 16:19-31] is not a reality but a parable. However, although I deny that it is a parable, let's for a moment grant that it is a parable. A parable is a comparison of some experience of life familiar to people that teaches some vital truth.... He was teaching the existence of life beyond the grave both in bliss and torment."(Dudley Ross Spears. "An Answer to Jehovah's Witness Error." The Gospel Guardian. XI:9. July 9, 1959. Page 14).

"The New Testament does not say that this is a parable, but assuming that it is a parable, why would it teach an untruth? Every other parable of Christ concerns things that could have literally taken place, whether they actually did or not. Christ never made use of Greek mythology or other fictional material of this sort in His teaching." (Dan Walters. "Denial of Hell -- A First Step In Modernism." Truth Magazine. XXIV:38. September 25, 1980. Page 10).

"The account of the rich man and Lazarus reveals the two possible destinies of people after death.... Some have tried to dismiss the teaching given here by saying it is just a parable. This may be a parable but if it is, it is not called that by Luke. If it is a parable it is the only time Jesus named a person in a parable. However, it teaches the same thing whether it is a parable or not, for a parable is something that either did happen or could happen. A parable may illustrate and make the truth easy to understand, but it does not weaken the teaching." (Albert Gardner. Introducing the Church of Christ. Fort Worth, TX: Star Bible Publications, 1981. Page 187).

LUKE 23:43

"Compare the above [Luke 23:43, TNT] with how the same verse is rendered in the Jehovah's Witnesses' New World Translation: 'And he said to him: "Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise." Do you notice the difference? It is a very small change, but very significant. The Watchtower Society's translators have moved the comma from before the word 'today' to after it. This moves the adverb 'today' from the second half of the sentence to the first half. So, instead of 'today' identifying the time when the repentant evildoer on the cross will be with the Lord 'in Paradise,' the text is changed so that 'today' appears to identify simply the time when Jesus was speaking. This is another case in which JW leaders [and Al Maxey] have changed the Bible to fit their doctrines." (David A. Reed. Jehovah's Witnesses Answered Verse by Verse. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1986. Page 68).

"Ask the Jehovah's Witness ... to show you the Comprehensive Concordance that the Watchtower Society published in 1973 for the New World Translation. Since the concordance is arranged alphabetically, ... you will find a convenient listing of the six verses where the Lord used this same expression in the Gospel of Luke, as well as all seventy-one passages where he used it in the four Gospels.... Just glance at the list: the commas all line up, except for Luke 23:43. This is the only verse that they punctuate differently, so as to include the time element in the first half of the sentence -- obvious proof that Watchtower translators altered this verse to fit the sect's doctrines." (David A. Reed. Jehovah's Witnesses Answered Verse by Verse. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1986. Page 69).

"It is comforting to know that when Jesus went to Paradise he did not go alone, but carried with him the soul of the penitent robber (Luke 23:43)." (William Hendriksen. New Testament Commentary: Exposition of the Gospel According to Matthew. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1973. Page 974).

"Jesus promised the dying thief that his spirit and the penitent thief's spirit would be together that very day in Hadean Paradise (Luke 23:43).... Man is conscious from death to judgment even though he possesses no body." (Robert R. Taylor, Jr. Introducing the Church of Christ. Fort Worth, TX: Star Bible Publications, 1981. Page 181).

"Lazarus went to Abraham's bosom, a place of happiness. This is where Jesus went when he died. He told the thief, 'Today shalt thou be with me in paradise' (Luke 23:43)." (Albert Gardner. Introducing the Church of Christ. Fort Worth, TX: Star Bible Publications, 1981. Page 188).

"Jesus, on the day of his death, journeyed with the penitent thief to Paradise.... During the period of his death, the Lord was in Hades (Acts 2:27, 31).... Therefore Paradise is in Hades." (Guy N. Woods. "The Thief on the Cross," Gospel Advocate. LXXXVII. April 19, 1945. Page 219).

Note: With regard to what Al calls "the misplaced comma in most translations of Luke 23:43," Al says, "I freely admit that most translations have perpetuated this error." With this admission, I need not cite other translations I have found. Al would simply reject them, too!

DESTROY

"APOLLUMI ... The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being. This is clear from its use ... of the loss of well-being in the case of the unsaved hereafter, Matt. 10:28; Luke 13:3, 5; John 3:16 ..." (W. E. Vine. An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words. Old Tappan, NJ: Fleming H. Revell Company, 1966. Volume I, page 302.)

"APOLEIA ... indicating loss of well-being, not of being." (W. E. Vine. An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words. Old Tappan, NJ: Fleming H. Revell Company, 1966. Volume I, page 303.)

"The word 'destroy' is used here [Matthew 10:28, TNT] in the sense not of annihilation but of the infliction of everlasting punishment upon a person.... Jesus, then, is saying that there is an everlasting future for both the soul and the body. Neither will be annihilated." (William Hendriksen. New Testament Commentary: Exposition of the Gospel According to Matthew. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1973. Pages 471-472).

THE "COMING" OF REVELATION 22:12

Al states: "I reject brother Thrasher's rejection of this passage as a reference to the Parousia."

"Since the visions have shown that the beginning of the great ordeal lay in the near future for John and his era, the 'coming' he speaks of here could hardly be the immediate coming of the parousia." (J. W. Roberts. The Revelation to John (The Apocalypse). Austin, TX: Sweet Publishing Company, 1974. Page 199.)

"In v. 7 and 10 we have additional evidence that those things were to come quickly. In v. 7: 'Behold I come quickly.' He was not speaking of the second coming, but of His coming wrath upon the enemies of the church as it was carried out in the fall of the Roman Empire. Again in v. 10 ... 'At hand' means it's going to happen real soon." (Ken Green. Radio Sermons On The Revelation. Cullman, AL: Printing Service, 1978. Pages 125-126).

"In verses 10-15 the importance of the book for the immediate needs of the people is indicated. John is told not to seal the book up for some distant generation. It is first of all for the Christians of John's own day (v. 10).... His judgment upon them is imminent (v. 12)." (Ray Summers. Worthy Is the Lamb. Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1951. Page 217).

ETERNAL DESTINY OF THE WICKED

"In Luke 12:5 Jesus warned, 'Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell.' Hell is not death but after death one can be cast into hell.... Jesus said one could 'be cast into everlasting fire' (Matt. 18:8). It is a fire 'that never shall be quenched') Mark 9:43)." (Albert Gardner. Introducing the Church of Christ. Fort Worth, TX: Star Bible Publications, 1981. Pages 189-190).

"You ... thus spend eternity in hell ... One can endure great sorrows and heavy burdens if there is hope of a better day in the future; but in hell there is no hope of a better day. Its sorrow and despair are endless." (Melvin J. Wise. The All-Sufficiency of the Gospel. Shreveport, LA: Lambert Book House, 1964. Page 132).

"The New Testament teaches that there are two possible kinds of life waiting for men at the end of this life: life in heaven and life in hell.... And what is hell? Hell is an eternal life of unfulfilled and self-contradictory humanity. It is living in hostility toward God and other people, and therefore denying one's own true self, forever. It is living forever without loving or the willingness to be loved, helping or letting oneself be helped. It is never coming to rest, but living forever in the frantic, self-destroying attempt to be what one is not and never can be. It is eternally attempting to be a human being without or against God and fellowmen. Hell, in other words, is not a kind of eternal life at all; it is a kind of eternal living death."(Shirley C. Guthrie, Jr. Christian Doctrine. Atlanta, GA: John Knox Press, 1968. Pages 397-398).

"You may live in opposition to God and to other people now and forever. You have chosen the living death of hell." (Shirley C. Guthrie, Jr. Christian Doctrine. Atlanta, GA: John Knox Press, 1968. Page 400).

"We need to understand, also, that 'eternal life' and 'eternal living' are not synonymous. The wicked will 'live' eternally in hell, but he will not enjoy 'eternal life', (Mt. 25:46)." (Elmer Moore. The Christian and Sin. Indianapolis, IN: Faith and Facts Press, 1993. Page 59).

"But what will be the punishment of the wicked? ... Will they just be annihilated, or will they suffer unending punishment? ... How long will the righteous enjoy their reward? Unendingly, eternally, of course. Well, just as long as these righteous enjoy their reward, the wicked will suffer their punishment." (John W. Wilson. "The Word of God or the Watchtower." The Gospel Guardian. XI:39. February 12, 1960. Page 5).

"... this condition of human souls, once begun, will never cease: 'and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever' (Rev. 20:10); 'and these shall go away into eternal punishment' (Matt. 25:46)." (Daniel H. King. "Hell and Hot Weather." Guardian of Truth. XXVIII:12. June 21, 1984. Page 7).

"The Bible says that hell is a place of torment or punishment. 'There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth,' (Matt. 25:30) ... shall be tormented day and night forever and ever,' (Rev. 20:10) ... these shall go away into everlasting punishment,' (Matt. 25:46). It is clear enough from these passages that man will be conscious in hell. While the punishment of the wicked is called destruction, it could not be annihilation, for the person who ceased to exist could hardly be in torment. Everything the Bible teaches about the immortality of the spirit of man goes to prove that he will be conscious in eternity, and if his fate is that of the unrighteous, he is to be conscious in his torment." (Gordon Wilson. "What the Bible Says About Hell." The Gospel Guardian. XII:35. January 12, 1961. Page 2).

"To be specific, the term correctly translated 'hell' (gehenna) appears twelve times in the New Testament. In each passage where the word is found it refers to a future place of punishment. Not a single time is the term employed literally to the Valley of Hinnom outside of Jerusalem. Future punishment in hell is not a teaching introduced in post-apostolic days, nor did it originate in paganism. It is a fact firmly rooted within the pages of Holy Scripture." (Jimmy Tuten. "Why The Doctrine Of Hell Is Rejected." Guardian of Truth. XXV:34. August 27, 1981. Page 7).

"Those who deny eternal punishment argue that hell will be annihilation; the wicked will simply be burned up. Yet the Bible teaches that hell was prepared for the Devil and his angels (Matt. 25:41) and that the Devil will 'be tormented day and night for ever and ever' (Rev. 20:10). The Devil is an angel, a spirit being, and there is no evidence that such a being is capable of being burned up. But then it is argued that man, being mortal, will be burned up while the Devil will continue to be tormented. The punishment of wicked humans is described in Romans 2:9 as 'tribulation and anguish.' ... but annihilation contains neither tribulation nor anguish." (Dan Walters. "Denial of Hell -- A First Step In Modernism." Truth Magazine. XXIV:38. September 25, 1980. Page 10).

"... the pains of hell are eternal and of a twofold nature -- the pain of loss and the pain of sense. The first consists in the privation of the beatific vision, the loss of God the greatest good which alone can satiate the longings of the human soul. The continual consciousness of this irreparable loss causes the reprobate unutterable anguish. The indescribable torment of sense is produced by a real, material, inextinguishable fire which differs from ordinary fire, as it doesn't need to be replenished with fuel in order to continue burning." (Edmund M. Dunne. Polemic Chat. St. Louis, MO: B. Herder Book Co., 1921. Page 113).

"The Lord quoted from Isaiah 66:24. He said, 'Their worm dieth not.' 'Worm' is translated from skokex, which is defined in the following manner: 'worm which preys upon dead bodies, is used metaphorically by the Lord in Mark 9:48. The statement signifies th exclusion of the hope of restoration, the punishment being eternal' (W. E. Vine, Expository Dictionary of N.T. Words, Vol. 4, p. 234). Since the 'worm' stands for punishment and is followed by the clause 'the fire is not quenched,' it is obvious that the Lord is talking about eternal or unending punishment. The phrase 'fire is not quenched' is the same in meaning as Matt. 18:9 where 'hell fire' is used. It has the same meaning as 'the lake of fire' (Rev. 20:14-15; 21:8), which is the 'second death' (Rev. 21:8)." (Jimmy Tuten. "Why The Doctrine Of Hell Is Rejected." Guardian of Truth. XXV:34. August 27, 1981. Page 7).

"The Bible is clear about the eternal nature of the punishment of the wicked. 'And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal' (Matt. 25:46). It is easy to see that Life is the same in duration as is the Punishment of the wicked. If one is temporary, so is the other.... 'Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels' (Matt. 25:41)." (Albert Gardner. Introducing the Church of Christ. Fort Worth, TX: Star Bible Publications, 1981. Pages 190-191).

"Then he shall also speak to those at his left (saying): Depart from me, you accursed ones, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.... This passage describes the punishment of the wicked as consisting of: a. separation ("Depart from me"); b. association ("prepared for the devil and his angels"); c. fire ("into the everlasting fire"), to which may be added d. (see verse 30) darkness ("into the outer darkness").... The wicked will dwell forever with the devil and his angels, for whom the everlasting fire was prepared.... This fire is unquenchable. It devours forever and ever." (William Hendriksen. New Testament Commentary: Exposition of the Gospel According to Matthew. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1973. Pages 889-890).

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.... Common to the concept 'everlasting' in both of these cases is the idea 'without end.' 'There is going to be an enduring separation. Punishment and life are everlasting. There will be no change' (F. W. Grosheide). Contrary to A.V. -- 'everlasting ... eternal" -- the adjective must be rendered by the same word in both of these balanced and co-ordinate clauses; hence, either 'eternal ... eternal' or 'everlasting ... everlasting.' ... Mark 9:48, 'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched'; Rev. 14:11, 'the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever.' Note also the sixfold 'no molre at all' of Rev. 18:21-23." (William Hendriksen. New Testament Commentary: Exposition of the Gospel According to Matthew. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1973. Page 891).

"And as to aionios [Hendrikson gives this using the Greek letters, TNT], if we limit the duration of the punishment, then why not also that of the life? But this hardly anyone wishes to do. Also, though it is true that aionios [Greek letters in original] may indicate either 'without beginning' ... or 'without end' ... or both ..., this does not help us in the present context, which, as has been shown, must be interpreted in the light of parallel passages, and therefore means 'without end." (William Hendriksen. New Testament Commentary: Exposition of the Gospel According to Matthew. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1973. Footnote on page 892).

"... the texts [Psalms 92:9; 94:23; 114:20; Isaiah 1:28; Ezekiel 18:20; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; 2 Peter 3:7] ... while implying ruin, irremediable overthrow, do not mean annihilation or extinction. Mortal-soulists, or 'annihilationists' as they are commonly designated, interpret these texts, on the contrary, with a bald and rigid literalism, inferring from them the actual annihilation of the wicked.... To show the irrelevancy and unsoundness of the arguments employed by writers of this class, the following examples of scripture usage are introduced. The reader will see, at a glance, to what absurdities literalistic interpretation, if consistently carried out, would lead its advocates." (John W. Haley. An Examination of the Alleged Discrepancies of the Bible. Nashville, TN: Gospel Advocate Company, 1974. Pages 203-204).

SUCH QUOTATIONS COULD BE GREATLY MULTIPLIED!

It is unnecessary to reproduce thousands of additional quotations from other scholars, commentators, and authors who have written in agreement with various views I have expressed in this debate. My opponent knows I could do it if I desired to extend this article indefinitely.

I emphasize again that these quotations do not prove what the truth is! Neither do those cited by Al! However, those I have cited will serve to demonstrate that there are "scholars" on both sides of this issue. Consequently, we need to "search the Scriptures" (not the ideas or opinions of men) "to find out whether these things are so." The Bible passages I have cited prove my position and refute Al's.

WHAT ABOUT AN ORAL DEBATE?

My acceptance of what I thought was Al's offer to debate "creation and the age of the earth" has been refused by him. He said, "My position over the years has remained consistent --- I do not do oral debates, only written ones.... Thus, I would respectfully decline any offer of an oral debate. It is simply not a format for discussion with which I have any interest whatsoever." Actually, this is just the type of response I expected from Al! However, why does he say, "I do not do oral debates"?

Al has much to say about my procrastination. However, the fact is that Al set a 40-day deadline for submitting my article, and I met it! I sent it by the time he specified! He stated: "My guess is that Thomas, as a teacher and school administrator, does not put up with such from those under his charge." Actually, you are wrong, Al. If I establish a deadline for something to be done, and it is done by that time, I am not the least bit unhappy!

Al quotes from The Pulpit Commentary on "the sin of procrastination," citing the case of Felix. What Felix did bears no parallel whatsoever to my sending an article by Al's specified deadline! I was busy serving the Lord in a variety of ways all during the 40-day period Al established. That one task of sending an article to Al was postponed until the deadline date, because I chose to do other things in His service. However, I did send the article when it was due!!!

Brother Maxey speaks of my "glibly perpetuating it to the hurt of others." Al, do you think the world is at a standstill while it awaits a debate article from me? I certainly do not have such an exalted opinion of myself! My belief is that there is plenty for all of us to be doing in the service of the Lord every day, whether or not they get to read an article from me! Remember, while Paul was "waiting" in Athens for his brethren, he was busy doing the Lord's work (Acts 17:16-17).

Since Al alleges that my sending my articles by his deadline has been "to the hurt of others," I request that anyone who has been "hurt" e-mail me before I prepare my final article and tell me what "hurt" you have suffered. Reader, if you have been sitting back and failing to do the Lord's work because you were waiting for one of my articles, please let me hear from you.

In his eighth article, Al quoted Edward Fudge: "Does Scripture teach that the wicked will be made immortal for the purpose of suffering endless pain; or does it teach that the wicked, following whatever degree and duration of pain God may justly inflict, will finally and truly DIE, PERISH, be DESTROYED and become extinct forever and ever?" Like my erring brother Edward, Al has argued that the words "die," "perish," and "destroy" indicate that the wicked will be annihilated, cease to exist, or become extinct. I agree that the wicked will die, perish, and be destroyed; however, both Al and Edward are wrong in arguing that these terms set forth the ANNIHILATION, EXTINCTION, or CEASING TO EXIST of the wicked.

"PERISH"

The Lord spoke of "bottles" that perish: "Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles PERISH: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved." (Matthew 9:17). The same idea is found in Luke 5:37, "And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall PERISH." The bottles did not cease to exist, but they were ruined.

Deuteronomy 22:1-3 states: "Thou shalt not see thy brother's ox or his sheep go astray, and hide thyself from them: thou shalt surely bring them again unto thy brother. And if thy brother be not nigh unto thee, or if thou know him not, then thou shalt bring it home to thy house, and it shall be with thee until thy brother seek after it, and thou shalt restore it to him. And so shalt thou do with his ass; and so shalt thou do with his garment; and so shalt thou do with every LOST thing of thy brother's, which he hath LOST, and thou hast FOUND: thou mayest not hide thyself." The word rendered "lost" in verse 3 is often translated "perish" (including Psalms 146:3, Deuteronomy 30:18, and Psalms 37:20, cited by brother Maxey). However, it is obvious that the ox, sheep, ass, or garment that were lost did not cease to exist when they were "lost" ("perished"), for another person could FIND them: "which he hath LOST, and thou hast FOUND"!

"DESTROY"

Edward also argued in the quotation Al gave that "destroy" was equivalent to becoming extinct. Al made the same argument in his articles, citing Matthew 10:28; 27:20; Acts 3:23; Romans 6:6; 7:6; 1 Corinthians 1:19; 2:6; 5:5; 15:24, 26; Galatians 5:15; 1 Thessalonians 5:3; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; 2:8; 1 Timothy 6:9; 2 Timothy 1:10; Hebrews 2:14; 2 Peter 3:7; 1 John 3:8 as if they teach the extinction/annihilation of the wicked.

Commenting on the word "destroy" (Acts 3:23) in his eighth article, Al said, "This is the Greek word 'exolothreuo' which appears only here in all the New Covenant documents. It means to 'exterminate; utterly destroy' (The Analytical Greek Lexicon); 'to slay wholly' (Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words); 'to destroy utterly; extirpate -- complete extermination' (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon). The Expositor's Greek Testament says that if this passage has 'any eschatological bearing, it would support the theory of annihilation!' In other words, this term is just that emphatic a declaration of extermination and annihilation."

When I checked Al's "quotations" from these sources, I found that he has once more been somewhat careless in "quoting" his sources.

However, the word "destroy" is not equivalent to extinction or annihilation, as the Bible clearly shows:

Not one passage cited by brother Maxey teaches the annihilation or extinction of the wicked. I urge you to read again the many passages that I have cited from God's Book in proof of the position that the wicked will suffer eternally.

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